[urbanclient]

For some reason people who i assume don't use buses often think it's slow when they can often times faster than the subway when traffic is light.

Whatever the case, a tram on a raised median should be beating a bus by a large(r) margin during the day. Especially since it stops less frequently. Having improved the signal priority at every intersection, the shortcomings going forward seem unique to lines running Citadis Spirits. The redesign to be implemented in 20XX? is for the cartridge bearing assembly only AFAIK. There would be no changes to the trains inability to make sharp turns at speed, which may be to do with the bogies constrained by the tight packaging. And maybe the problem is (also) something to do with the tracks...

However, it's not a novel concept to be running low floors on tight curves... I can even imagine that Ottawa asked Alstom to build a turd. Alstom only pushed back lightly, "are you sure about these specs?". Ottawa insisted. And here we are, over a decade later. Not surprising for an Ontario transit authority to be an uninformed customer.

The Citadis Dualis tram-trains in Paris have similar theoretical top speeds of 100 km/h. The same minimum curve radius of 25 metres. Yet have nowhere the level of reported problems as the Spirits.

It's normal for a bus to accelerate faster than a tram, but it's not normal for a bus to have a higher effective top speed on the same road.

Line 5 Eglinton really saved Torontonians perception of low floors.

 

[lastcommodore]

The Citadis Dualis tram-trains in Paris have similar theoretical top speeds of 100 km/h. The same minimum curve radius of 25 metres. Yet have nowhere the level of reported problems as the Spirits.

So I really gotta ask, 'cause I dont have much knowledge on this particular part-- how in the world did Alstom screw it up? What in did the Citadis Spirit have that the Dualis did not, that made Ottawa and Metrolinx choose the Spirit, and how in the world did the Spitits end up so damn unreliable and problematic? The Citadis line has sold countless trams, it's not like Alstom's new to this.

 

[lastcommodore]

I diverted my commute one hour and have taken my very first ride on 6 FW leaving Humber 12:02 EB, arrive 12:40
*Update: Turns out I lost less time than I would have if I took my usual commute, given Lakeshore West had a serious incident causing significant delays.

Will do some more analysis later on the data as ive taken a gpx, incl. theoretical times, but initial points:

38 mins end to end. 16.3kmh avg
18 greens and 5 reds. (Ped crossing not included- Green) Two greens were clipped (Tram slowed for a red then light turned green)
Every single red was clipped, followed by the left turn phase. All reds could have been avoided if left turns ran first, but then we would have caught some 5 reds waiting for lefts to go first... to literally nobody's surprise who paid attention to @reaperexpress, moving the left turn phase to after through traffic doesnt increase green time... We need phase rotation

Additional thoughts:
- I like the foamer window.
- The trams dont seem to take the humber curve nicely.
- Smooth, but feels more like rail thats been roughed in for some time, like on the streetcar network, not new rail like line 5
- Operators are incredibly cautious with speed. They are usually slowed down well before the intersection. Does the station slowzone apply to the the platform on the opposite direction???
- Whoever thought to install a big handbar right in front of the screens should have their sanity checked.

 

[pmacpherson68]

Agree, even with no engineering/track design background it's quite clear from riding the line for even just 5 minutes something is fundamentally wrong with the way the vehicles moves along the tracks. Whether or not that's being caused by poor vehicle construction (which with the manufacturers track recorded I lean toward this scenario), or messed up track geometry I can't say, but the grinding sensation is insane.

Im not sure about the grinding, i didnt really feel/hear that when I last took it both times, but I definitely felt a distinct shaking/bumping feel from the wheels and tracks.... perhaps there's warping somewhere?

 

[jmi22]

Im not sure about the grinding, i didnt really feel/hear that when I last took it both times, but I definitely felt a distinct shaking/bumping feel from the wheels and tracks.... perhaps there's warping somewhere?

I might have gotten a more dramatic experience as I was sitting on the 4 top seats raised above the wheel hubs

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Not a scientifically empirically backed explanation but here are some pics of the rails between the Eglinton and Finch LRT. You can see the wheel-rail interface difference with the shine. These are taken at station stops.

Eglinton LRT:

Finch LRT:

The wheel profile on the Eglinton LRT seems to be very similar to the profile that the TTC uses for the subway.

 

[smallspy]

So I really gotta ask, 'cause I dont have much knowledge on this particular part-- how in the world did Alstom screw it up? What in did the Citadis Spirit have that the Dualis did not, that made Ottawa and Metrolinx choose the Spirit, and how in the world did the Spitits end up so damn unreliable and problematic? The Citadis line has sold countless trams, it's not like Alstom's new to this.

The Citadis Spririt has a new truck design which, as far as I can tell, is unprecedented in its use under a low-floor LRT car. It is an inside-framed truck with swing link suspension - but with motors and gearboxes mounted outboard of the wheels. All of those things have long existed independently of each other in the railroad world and without issue, but not all in one package like here. The more and more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that it must be changed.

Dan

 

[APTA-2048]

Will be interesting to see what changes will be made for Quebec’s Citadis Spirit LRVs. Neither Quebec nor Toronto have the same requirements as Ottawa did. So it would make sense to use a less problematic design going forward.

Toronto only got Ottawa clones because Metrolinx panicked and bought cars they didn’t really need.

 

[nfitz]

Not a scientifically empirically backed explanation but here are some pics of the rails between the Eglinton and Finch LRT. You can see the wheel-rail interface difference with the shine. These are taken at station stops.

Is there more wear on Eglinton where the trains are stopping? (which would be a downside of ATC).

 

[urbanclient]

Is there more wear on Eglinton where the trains are stopping? (which would be a downside of ATC).

I am very certain that ATC is supposed to result in less wear than manual operations, barring exceptions like Line 5 slamming on the magnetic track brakes due to intrusions and software bugs.

 

[nfitz]

I am very certain that ATC is supposed to result in less wear than manual operations, barring exceptions like Line 5 slamming on the magnetic track brakes due to intrusions and software bugs.

Wouldn't the breaking and acceleration be more specific to a certain very small piece of track, for each wheel? In a bigger picture, they certainly replace the streetcar track at stops more frequently, and I'd have guessed that it would only be more so if they stopped at exactly the same spot every time. Though perhaps the software varies the stopping location by a small amount each time - after 50 years of ATC operations I guess this isn't exactly cutting edge issues.

But I'm pulling it out of my ass ...

 

[urbanclient]

Wouldn't the breaking and acceleration be more specific to a certain very small piece of track, for each wheel? In a bigger picture, they certainly replace the streetcar track at stops more frequently, and I'd have guessed that it would only be more so if they stopped at exactly the same spot every time. Though perhaps the software varies the stopping location by a small amount each time - after 50 years of ATC operations I guess this isn't exactly cutting edge issues.

But I'm pulling it out of my ass ...

You're not totally wrong, as far as I know ATC is supposed make the acceleration and braking more predictable, and more gradual in Toronto's case (unfortunately?)

A human operator can put the pedal to the metal metaphorically like on Line 2. They may stay on the throttle too long, brake too late, too hard, leading to more use of the friction brakes relative to regen brakes, more wear for everything, more brake dust.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Is there more wear on Eglinton where the trains are stopping? (which would be a downside of ATC).

Good question, I’m not sure if there is more wear. Usually stations and stops have more wear in general.

The photos that I had taken was to try to show how the wheel profile contacts with the railhead. This effects the ride quality of vehicles.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I diverted my commute one hour and have taken my very first ride on 6 FW leaving Humber 12:02 EB, arrive 12:40

Will do some more analysis later on the data as ive taken a gpx, incl. theoretical times, but initial points:

38 mins end to end. 16.3kmh avg
18 greens and 5 reds. (Ped crossing not included- Green) Two greens were clipped (Tram slowed for a red then light turned green)
Every single red was clipped, followed by the left turn phase. All reds could have been avoided if left turns ran first, but then we would have caught some 5 reds waiting for lefts to go first... to literally nobody's surprise who paid attention to @reaperexpress, moving the left turn phase to after through traffic doesnt increase green time... We need phase rotation

Additional thoughts:
- I like the foamer window.
- The trams dont seem to take the humber curve nicely.
- Smooth, but feels more like rail thats been roughed in for some tibe, like on the streetcar network, not new rail like line 5
- Operators are incredibly cautious with speed. They are usually slowed down well before the intersection. Does the station slowzone apply to the the platform on the opposite direction???
- Whoever thought to install a big handbar right in front of the screens should have their sanity checked.

View attachment 722989

The handlebar blocking the screen was my first thought once stepping on the trains.

 

[pmacpherson68]

Will be interesting to see what changes will be made for Quebec’s Citadis Spirit LRVs. Neither Quebec nor Toronto have the same requirements as Ottawa did. So it would make sense to use a less problematic design going forward.

Toronto only got Ottawa clones because Metrolinx panicked and bought cars they didn’t really need.

I know eh... there was actually a time when Metrolinx thought that the line would be ready before the cars... lol