[Bordercollie]

In the TTC, no one takes initiatives or ownership.

It's not the TTC's fault. Mosaic operates and maintains the line. If they don't know how to shovel snow, that's not a TTC problem.

 

[Westey]

Toronto already had established modes of transport: bus, subway, streetcar!

I would add the SRT to the list. With a bit of promotion, Toronto did have an example of a mini-metro where passenger volumes are not as high but speed is important.
I am sure that most people in Toronto did not even know that Vancouver has elevated transit. It could have easily been argued that the SRT Mark I was equivalent to a Nokia Flip Phone while the Vancouver SkyTrain or Canada Line was the i-phone 5, or whatever was new at that time. Nobody cared how the vehicle got its power or that it was shorter or that it was elevated (the most popular part of the SRT was near Brimley where it's elevated), but they did care about speed and reliability.

 

[PL1]

It's not the TTC's fault. Mosaic operates and maintains the line. If they don't know how to shovel snow, that's not a TTC problem.

Agreed, but the average person sees lines operated by the TTC not working, and they blame the TTC.

 

[hw621]

It's not the TTC's fault. Mosaic operates and maintains the line. If they don't know how to shovel snow, that's not a TTC problem.

So who owns the line? Mosaic is just a vendor. Who keeps them in check if things are not working?

 

[JSF-1]

I think part of the problem is the way “LRT” is used. Someone mentioned it earlier too above. The term is so vague that it allows for massive overpromise without anyone being honest about what is actually being built.

Toronto already had established modes of transport: bus, subway, streetcar!

Metrolinx could have just been upfront….Finch West is essentially a modern streetcar on a mostly dedicated right-of-way. If they had, the outrage over Line 6 would likely have been much lower. The speed issue would still exist (and rightly so) but at least the bar we were comparing it to would have been realistic from the start. We would still be calling for Finch West, Spadina, Lakeshore and St. Clair to all be brought up to the standards expected of a serious rapid transit system.

On top of that, calling it Line 6 gives the impression it is equivalent to subway lines rather than a streetcar. Combined with the “LRT” label, it creates a double mismatch between expectation and reality. People naturally expect a rapid, high-capacity service when they hear “Line 6 LRT” and that is exactly why criticism is so intense. The branding set the bar far too high.

If it were up to me, Finch West with transit signal priority and full speeds would be the standard I would want St. Clair, Spadina and Lakeshore streetcars to follow. In fact, the entire streetcar system if I am being honest. I would also give them lettered line designations to clearly differentiate them from the subways and the legacy streetcar network (something some else mentioned earlier too….either here or on Reddit.)

Well to add to this, it is worth remembering the very first incarnation of Transit City in 2007 was literally just an expansion of the streetcar network. All the lines were supposed to use the same track gauge as the streetcars and use the at the time proposed Flexity Outlook LRV's. If I had to guess the reason for the shift to the current LRT standard was probably for two reasons:

1) Technical: Obviously the LRV's on Finch and Eglinton are larger then their downtown counterparts giving them a high capacity, although Low-Floor LRV's in general will never be able to compete with High-Floor LRV's in terms of capacity.
2) Marketing: Streetcar is unfortunately still a dirty word in North America and calling it a streetcar would have painted an image of downtown's streetcars operating on the road in the minds of our car owning overlords. It's actually the complete opposite of what happened on Spadina where local business owners wanted the 510 to be called a streetcar and not an LRT. The word streetcar apparently causes people to become incredibly irrational. (Also I wish we would stop calling the East Bayfront and Waterfront West Lines LRT's when they are just streetcar extensions, unfortunately North America's irrational hatred of Streetcars forces us to get creative with our marketing).

So who owns the line? Mosaic is just a vendor. Who keeps them in check if things are not working?

Metrolinx, so don't expect anything good to happen.

 

[ARG1]

I think it proves two other things. Metrolinx needs to be fully removed from the construction and planning process of transit lines since this is yet another example of them having no clue what they are doing. They used all of the same equipment as the Confederation Line in Ottawa even after they were aware of the issues it caused (Metrolinx in general needs to be dissolved since to me it has failed its mandate and has delivered nothing to the GTA). We should just go back to how things used to be with the TTC in charge of the design and construction of new rapid transit lines since they have a better and more proven track record (even if its not 100% perfect). The other thing it proves imo is we need to abandon the P3 model. Mosaic has proven ineffective at maintaining the line and make no mistake these issues can also arise on the EC and OL. All the P3 has done is given everyone a way to deflect blame onto someone else. While the TTC is by no means perfect and their operating practices are suspect and needs to be scrutinized and fixed, having the TTC being the sole operator and maintaner of infrastructure is a system that worked for over 100 years. Going to the P3 model was supposed to be a way to reduce costs yet it has just created more headaches and finger pointing; and cost saving could have been found under the previous model with a little effort.

I'm not sure going back to the TTC being in charge of everything without other major reforms is a good idea. For all of Metrolinx' faults, the one thing the province got right in creating them is undertanding the need to have an overarching and centralized planning authority that can take into account the fact the GTA is in fact a collection of interconnected cities, and that the "city" doesn't truly end at the Toronto limits. What we had before was independent planning where agencies often forgot about other players, like how Transit City was planned without any consideration of the GO train network and any improvements it may bring to the table. Metrolinx may be a failed project, but that doesn't mean going back to the way it was before is the right answer either.

 

[torontolover100]

Hi folks, long term lurker of the forums here. Don't want to drive this further off-topic than needed but If I might give my two cents I feel that this discussion about whether or not Toronto is a "world-class" city is pretty crazy to have in 2026. I find it strange that we as Torontonians are so quick to dismiss our strengths and highlight our supposed shortcomings compared to NY/London/Tokyo, etc.

We're the largest city in the 10th largest economy in the world, we're the home of the 10th largest stock exchange in the world and some of the world's foremost financial services companies. We're home to some of the largest gold miners on the planet as some of you have pointed out. Culturally, we're (Southern Ontario) home to some of the most listened to musicians on the planet (Drake, The Weeknd, Justin Bieber, Shawn Mendes). Even Pearson (which is partially in Toronto), is a major hub for international flights into North America. Yeah, we're not #1 for everything but we're certainly not some podunk backwater, why are we so afraid of calling ourselves a big important city? I think the tension is that we are a large city but our infrastructure hasn't kept up like other similarly large cities.

Regardless of Toronto's global stature, our rapid transit network is clearly underbuilt. Just compare us to the second and third largest cities in our country. The Toronto CMA is ~7.1mm people vs 4.6mm for Montreal CMA and 3.1mm in Vancouver CMA. Including Hamilton, we're literally the same size as MTL + VAN. Shouldn't we have a rapid transit system commensurate with our significantly larger population?

Back on topic, I think Line 6 is fine as local transit, given that it's not a key corridor for cross-city travel. I'm just hoping we stop using Toronto not being a "world class" city as an excuse to not carry out the expensive but necessary expansion of our infrastructure. (Not saying any of you are opposed to expansion, I just find it strange that so many people take umbrage to classifying Toronto has a "global" or "world class" city).

 

[Burnt creek]

Not to defend Metrolinx but Isn't Metrolinx just executing a plan/mandate? I always thought that that was their role; Project management. If you tell them to build a rail transit service between point A and point B and to put X number of stops, then that's what they will.do. Someone has to tell them.

In the case of FWLRT that's what they did. They developed a plan, they went out and found someone to build it, they revised a plan and followed up to ensure execution and accountability, and reported on the execution of the plan to the stakeholders. They're project managers (Project management 101) and that's what project managers do. If you give project managers a business requirement that makes no sense or a product or service that client's (in this the public) doesn't want, its not the project managers role to say: "No we wont do it" or "it doesnt serve the public well". Its the politicians who tell Project managers , in this case Metrolinx, what to build.

I found it frustrating when a media outlet recently polled the public about who they blamed for FWLTR failures and they only gave the options of TTC (the operators) and Metrolinx (the project manager). once again, this shows how totally clueless the people in the media are.

 

[Bordercollie]

So who owns the line? Mosaic is just a vendor. Who keeps them in check if things are not working

Metrolinx

 

[PinkLucy]

Let’s get back on topic

 

[lastcommodore]

I'm just hoping we stop using Toronto not being a "world class" city as an excuse to not carry out the expensive but necessary expansion of our infrastructure.

Thank you. I am not really sure what relevance this debate has. Supposing it is a world class city, or it is not, does not change really anything about what is being discussed. Unless one of you want to be the one who says, "I used to think Line 6 should be improved, but now that I'm convinced Toronto isn't a world class city, Line 6 doesn't need any improvements and is fine the way it is now!" or vice versa. For the sake of killing this discussion I am going to withhold my opinion on this

Not to defend Metrolinx but Isn't Metrolinx just executing a plan/mandate? I always thought that that was their role; Project management. If you tell them to build a rail transit service between point A and point B and to put X number of stops, then that's what they will.do. Someone has to tell them.

Yep. Metrolinx isn't independent. I suppose it is somewhat on paper, but it is absolutely first and foremost beholden to the political stakeholders before it is beholden to good planning, good finance management, etc. It will never make good planning and financial decisions so long as they dance to the beat of whoever's in charge of Queen's Park.

I don't think anyone can or should knock on MX for the plan that this is a median-running tram, or how many stops there are, or whatever is promised by the politicians that they need to figure out.

That being said, they have shown themselves to be rather incapable of engineering these plans into blueprints, keeping costs low, and learning best practices from abroad. I don't think the TTC is any more intelligent as they clearly are incapable in other areas and have had significant failures in the few construction projects they still have, but only that they had more experience in delivering projects compared to MX when all the new projects were dumped on them. Meanwhile, most of those TTC projects are well into the past, in a different Toronto that cannot be easily replicated in cost and speed as it can today. I think those who argue, "The TTC needs to be put back in charge, MX is clearly a failure." would not be happy at the end of the first construction project led back by the TTC.

 

[urbanclient]

"I used to think Line 6 should be improved, but now that I'm convinced Toronto isn't a world class city, Line 6 doesn't need any improvements and is fine the way it is now!"

I have heard something tantamount to that several times on UT over the last few months. It's like going to the Vatican (Urban Toronto) to espouse the benefits of Atheism (transit hating NIMBYism).

(Not saying any of you are opposed to expansion, I just find it strange that so many people take umbrage to classifying Toronto has a "global" or "world class" city).

^Agreed. Also I'm glad Line 6 was built, even though I have been very vocal about its faults, simply because Toronto has a habit of procrastinating on transit. That Line 6 exists is a blessing. Even though it may suck right now, it's better than twiddling thumbs for the better part of 50 years like with the downtown relief line. Building it and failing, or building it and slowly learning to make it better, either way you learn from failures, hopefully to never repeat them.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

How does the Waterloo LRT deal with cross street/intersection snow?

View attachment 709178

Siemens Mobility Canada (which in 2021 purchased RailTerm, the rail maintenance contractor for ION) has a few highrail-equipped plow trucks that run down the on-street portion and a TrackMobile with a large thick steel plate that can bash out windrows along the entire length of the line if needed. While the switches on the embedded track sections use the same switch heating technology as Line 6, the same switch issues don't exist during bad weather as the maintenance contractor also cleans them as part of the snow clearing. Keolis Grand River also has standby operators available to run trains overnight. The requirements for the ION system operator and maintainer were clearly laid out in the contract, including the need to have snow clearing equipment and the ability to run storm trains. If those requirements weren't included in the contract with Mosaic then blame for the inability to properly clear snow would lay at the feet of Metrolinx.

 

[nfitz]

Not to defend Metrolinx but Isn't Metrolinx just executing a plan/mandate?

How is this different to GO Transit service, other than TTC being the operator, instead of Alstom?

 

[Bordercollie]

How is this different to GO Transit service, other than TTC being the operator, instead of Alstom?

Well Alston runs and maintains the trains but Metrolinx maintains the corridor.

In this case mosaic maintains the infrastructure and they didn't take snow plowing into consideration.